Video stipulations
Lots of comments on my video posts. Let me stipulate some things to respond to folks:
- It would be better to never have to transcode, but you probably need to do it sometimes. it's just a matter of how often.
- Zune makes transcoding utterly automatic for the user; you add a supported file to the library, and if it needs transcoding it gets transcoded prior to sync. We do pre-transcode files for folks so they won't have to wait, but sometimes this doesn't work and users must transcode a lot during sync. Sorry. Go have dinner, maybe get a nap, then use your device. Or get a quad-dual-core machine. ;)
- The key phrase above? "supported file". The biggest crux in comments: DVR-MS files. The challenge with DVR-MS is that it's mpeg-2, which is cranky and possibly unreliable (if you use an existing codec) or expensive (if you build one in to the software).
- Let's agree DVR-MS and Divx support would be great. I wish we had it at launch.
- My preferred solution, TMPGenc, is more poweful than most people need and more expensive than I'd like. Bummer. Can people suggest free/cheap alternatives and I'll play around with them? Frankly I suspect free stuff will be rough because (a) video is hard to program and (b) codecs and expensive. But I'd love to be proven wrong.
Thanks. The feedback is great and I agree this is an area for future investment and differentiation from the iPod.
20 Comments:
It's good to know that you guys are working on improving video support on the Zune and make it into a much less painful process for the average user - or one who hasn't yet had the opportunity to convince his parents to get him a Quad core machine! :-)
To be honest, this has given me enough faith in you guys to go out and get a Zune - even with the video process being somewhat painful (for someone like me) at the moment.
On another note however, someone like me is in a particularly weird situation - I have switched over from iTunes and now stick completely with the Zune software - I intend to purchase a Zune soon (and convinced at least a bunch of my friends to do the same thing), but just haven't had the opportunity to get one yet.
Anyways, the fact of the matter is that I already have a bunch of .mp4 videos that are ready to be converted in the Zune software so that they would be ready to sync immediately once I get my Zune! Because I haven't synced up a Zune to the software yet - I am not able to "force" the videos to convert into .wmv - now background converting is good, but sometimes you just want things to work fast.
This "manual" or "forced" conversion is something already supported in the piece of software that is iTunes - and it would be a great feature to add to Zune, making many of my previous complaints much less of a problem.
At the moment, Windows Media Encoder simply doesn't cut it when I want to convert a batch of videos to the Zune. (Plus, it doesn't even support .mp4 files)
Anyways, keep up the good work! You guys have managed to create a solid product in a short period of time, that could do with just a little bit more polishing.
On another note, here are some free (or cheap) programs that I use - or have tried - to help me convert files for Zune support.
1. Windows Media Encoder 9
The worst of the bunch, yet the only one that can convert files DIRECTLY into a .wmv format natively supported by the Zune. As well as the only one that can add video info into the file (e.g. actors, release date, type, etc...)
2. Super Coverter (http://www.erightsoft.com/SUPER.html)
Only recently tried it out, seems to be pretty solid in terms of support - but .wmv support on it is broken, and as a result, and as a result requires me to convert my .avi files into .mp4 files for the Zune software to transcode. Has the best codec support of the bunch though.
3. Total Video Converter
(http://www.effectmatrix.com/total-video-converter/)
Not free - but I have tried out the trial and came away with a very positive impression of it - however, once again it doesn't support .wmv files, and as a result requires me to convert files to .mp4 once again!
4. MediaCoder
(http://www.rarewares.org/mediacoder/)
The closest I have gotten to a program that could convert files directly into .wmv - MediaCoder does this by making use of Windows Media Encoder - while using their own codecs at the same time. This seems like the perfect free utility - the only problem is, I haven't gotten it to work properly on my computer for whatever reason.
There you go, hope that they are of help you you!
Out of the box you can see that a lot of effort went into making this device more video friendly... that being said, I won't rehash supporting dvr-ms files, except to say which programs I use... I like Videora (which is now shareware, but the original .90 code was free) does the trick... it converts in many formats, and allows you to choose video and audio bitrate. Nice to use for devices of different types. Another program that for me works flawlessly is digital media converter, which although it takes it's sweet time, does beautiful conversions of my recorded shows.
I've been told nero recoder works but haven't used it yet.
Ok so here's my question - can you copy video (assuming you have an XSATA or some other device that allows access to the 360 harddrive) that you purchased and convert it to your zune? Or is that a "future" capability? Would make competing with ITV much easier...
What loads of sh!t!
"We do pre-transcode files for folks so they won't have to wait, but sometimes this doesn't work and users must transcode a lot during sync. Sorry. Go have dinner, maybe get a nap, then use your device. Or get a quad-dual-core machine. ;)"
That's the most arrogant, stupid comment I've ever read. If it "sometimes doesn't work", your system is broke... Don't ask me to sit on my @ss, fix the crappy system!
"The challenge with DVR-MS is that it's mpeg-2, which is cranky and possibly unreliable (if you use an existing codec) or expensive (if you build one in to the software)."
What? There's nothing wrong with mpeg-2. Microsoft built a sh!tty, proprietary codec on top of it. Take the blame, don't pass the buck.
The issue with mpeg-2 is not with the codec *spec* (which is fine, and it enables DVDs so horray mpeg), it's with the implementations. For example, many are designed to play back video only in real time. Ideally, transcoding would happen much faster but then the resulting video quality suffers.
mpeg-2 licensing is also very costly - both on the software and in the hardware. Thats a main reason no ipod, no zen, no Zune supports it natively.
Most of the netcasts i watch either come as wmv or are in a format that it can transcode, and you have said that support is comming for the other codecs that i use. I'm more frustrated with the number of music tracks that are unavailable and why so many are requiring me to purchase them despite having a zune pass. For example, on the Billboard Modern Rock list the first 5 are unavailable and the 6th requires me to purchase. Many of the other lists are the same. Is there any eplanation why or if it is going to change?
I understand your clarification David. My point is this: DVR-MS *IS* *THE* sh!tty implementation of the codec. Your point casts more concern in mpeg-2's direction. Well, why did YOUR company create a sh!tty implementation of an expensive codec if you can't implement it properly nor afford to pay for it?
And claiming that the others don't natively support it is a weak attempt to cast aspersions on others. Other device software can still transcode it or play it natively. Why can't your company figure out its own crappy implementation of a codec for local playback or transcoding?
You haven't answered that yet... You've tossed bombs at mpegla and every other device manufacturer, but you haven't explained it for your own company.
jake, tell me one codec that David said is coming? I can't think of one.
Yes, Zune has a smaller catalog of almost any store in the universe. Yes, they perversely list songs they don't sell. Are you surprised? They have to make it look bigger than it is. Considering MSN Music was mostly a rebranded frontend to others's stores, and considering they will be less successful than most any other store, no, I wouldn't expect it to improve much.
Anonymous: Why are you attacking David for an implementation that his company created? You expect him take the rap for a poorly implemented codec? Remember, he's not a PR guy. Talk to Caesar if you want a soundbite.
Lie to me. Tell me that you've ever seen an online music store that has every single piece of music you want. Not everyone in the RIAA is happy about subscription services, sharing via wifi, or online music in general.
Stop antagonizing the poor guy, and let him do his job. You want to complain? Register for a blogger account, send an e-mail to customer service, crank call Steve Ballmer, whatever. Just leave this blog to productive discussions and not mindless "everything's your fault" babble.
After specificly mentioning divx files he stated: "For now, Zune can't do all the files that matter, but we're working on it."
Also I realized that they wouldn't have every music file at launch, you can only do so much in a first release. I was really just wondering what their plans are for adding more, and why i still have to pay for some albums despite the zune pass. I was also supprised that they would not have so many of the top of the charts.
For the most part my expirience has been positive. I am happy with the device itself apart from a strange skipping for the first few seconds a track starts playing. As for the marketplace I can't really complain about the few technical glitches, since i'm running it on vista. However for the files that are currently supported the transcoding has been working great. I already have my podcast client setup to download to a specific folder, which the marketplace monitors and then automaticly transcodes and syncs.
"Why are you attacking David for an implementation that his company created?"
Um, that seems pretty obvious, doesn't it. His company created it.
"Remember, he's not a PR guy. Talk to Caesar if you want a soundbite."
Why would I want to talk to a PR guy? Isn't David the one having this conversation? Didn't he start it? Why would I want to talk to a marketing drone attempting to defend policies and technicalities way over his head?
"Lie to me."
What? Why? Tell me you honestly think it's cool that Microsoft lists songs that are unavailable in all forms.
" Tell me that you've ever seen an online music store that has every single piece of music you want. "
Why? Tell me one other store that lists music that it does not sell in ANY format or mode? There is only the Zune. Is this your attempt at defending them? Why?
"Not everyone in the RIAA is happy about subscription services, sharing via wifi, or online music in general."
And? What does that have to do with Zune listing songs it doesn't sell in any format?
"Stop antagonizing the poor guy, and let him do his job. You want to complain? Register for a blogger account, send an e-mail to customer service, crank call Steve Ballmer, whatever. Just leave this blog to productive discussions and not mindless "everything's your fault" babble. "
Oh, poor baby, want a hug? I've asked David perfectly legitimate questions and raised perfectly legitimate concerns and he has honestly tried to address them. You're just a pathetic fanboy on the sideline refusing to see the debate.
jake ballard: "For now, Zune can't do all the files that matter, but we're working on it."
i.e. He never mentioned a specific codec or said it was coming. Thanks.
"I am happy with the device itself apart from a strange skipping for the first few seconds a track starts playing."
Every track skips on start and you're happy. Boy, you're easy to please.
Sorry, I just try to be reasonable. It is impossible to have a perfect device. As nice as it would be to have every bit sound recorded as music available, be able to understand any video format i can devise, and conform to my every personal preference, we live in the real world. In the real world trying to make a perfect product that is never released does no one any good. A project must be run with set goals and a set date, if not the scope continues to creep and the project continues indefinately. They have said that they are working on adding more support. What more do you want?
My issue with skipping is no more anoying than issues i have had with other devices, and it is fixable. I would consider a firmware fixable anoyance a minor bug, not enough to outweigh the things i like about it.
If you know of something that does everything you want, and plays your personal favorite codecs, then why don't you just buy that. I happen to like the interface, i see alot of potential with having wifi included, and i think that the hardware will hold up well. It would be nice if they gave more specifics about the updates they are planing to make, but i realize that they may not be able to do so at this time.
Hello, i have a different question. Can you now say when Zune will be available in Europe? I really want one, and one year waiting is very long you know.
David, when are the "how to's" going to start?
anonymous: I'm not a "fanboy". I don't have a Zune for a good reason; I realize there are a few pretty sizable issues that need to be ironed out. I think MS should've started a bit earlier, or released a bit later to get everything right. If you'll look over my previous posts, you'll see that I've taken issue with a number of steps the Zune team has made. That being said, I think you probably could've expressed yourself and your contempt for all things Microsoft in a much more civil manner.
No, David doesn't need an attack dog or a babysitter, but blaming him for a codec that (I'm to understand) he didn't work on is wholly unreasonable.
As for your remarks about songs being listed that aren't available, I'm not sure. I'd assume they're placeholders for if and when they get the rights. In Urge, there are songs that aren't available. But really, lighten up. Take a walk outside, perhaps?
Man I am really trying to be accepting about this video issue, but I have to draw the line somewhere. It took me hours to convert my avi files into mpeg4. then I assumed the zune software would automatically convert it. instead, it gave me the impression it would work ( it showed up and played correctly when played through the zune software ) but it still has to convert while my zune is attached!!
I just got my zune, I don't want it to be transferring for hours at a time while I can't use it. I have tried converting it while I sleep, but often times an error will come up and I will have wasted half a night's worth.
I know this issue is being worked on, but for the sake of necessity I had to comment about it.
ballard: "Sorry, I just try to be reasonable. It is impossible to have a perfect device."
Actually, it's unreasonable to accept skipping tracks. That's not something to wait for an update for. That's a flaw and one which should be fixed asap. I would return it. I would imagine the Zune folks would even suggest getting it fixed.
"As nice as it would be to have every bit sound recorded as music available, be able to understand any video format i can devise, and conform to my every personal preference, we live in the real world."
In the real world, you should be able to support your own formats (at least through transcoding) without dissing someone that has nothing to do with your own flaws.
"They have said that they are working on adding more support. What more do you want?"
Something more than empty promises... which aren't even promises. "We can update it" and "we are working on improving it" does not mean we will add further codec support.
"My issue with skipping is no more anoying than issues i have had with other devices, and it is fixable. I would consider a firmware fixable anoyance a minor bug, not enough to outweigh the things i like about it."
I've never experienced such a thing, and the one person I know who has didn't wait for an update, they returned it and got a properly functioning new one.
adam: "That being said, I think you probably could've expressed yourself and your contempt for all things Microsoft in a much more civil manner."
Oh, boo hoo, you don't like my tone. Sorry.
"No, David doesn't need an attack dog or a babysitter, but blaming him for a codec that (I'm to understand) he didn't work on is wholly unreasonable."
No, it's not. He's talking about it. I didn't bring it up. He did. It's unreasonable for him to bring it up and make poor claims and not expect to be questioned or called out. Am I supposed to let him incorrectly gabber on because he didn't write the code? Why? Why shouldn't he be responsible for speaking accuratelyt about something he doesn't seem to know about?
only if the zune software can convert VOB to wmv directly or support mp4 without converting it..
The Zune would be king.
If I have converted my DVD's to WMV why is Zune converting it again. Are there special settings during my WMV conversion to make it sync without re-encoding?
You are correct; the zune needs the videos to be at 320x240 and under around 800kbps video to play them, else the zune software will re-transcode to that format automagically.
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