DVR-MS explained
DVR-MS is a big topic among the enthusiast community (and in the comments on this blog), but I want to point out a number of painful misunderstandings about it.
I should say upfront; for anyone who has an MCE box with a tuner (a small but vocal group), what I'm going to say can't make them feel much better. Sorry. But it should clarify what's going on technically.
First, what *is* DVR-MS? It's basically an MPEG-2 video stream wrapped up in a Microsoft ASF container needed to enable DRM. MPEG-2 has a single overriding advantage:
- Lots of mainstream tuner cards can encode into it (using built-in mpeg-2 encoders) in their hardware, which means you will still get good video quality even if you're playing Half-Life 2 when a show comes on.
This advantage has been pretty definitive for MCE, and is the main reason for using MPEG-2 (oh, if only h.264 or wmv were in there!).
This said, there are disadvantages that become painful in a portable device:
- The files are huge (relative to mpeg-4, h.264, or WMV) for practical portable device use. So you really need to transcode.
- You might try to rely on an existing mpeg-2 decoder on the PC. But existing mpeg-2 decoders are primarily designed for real-time playback. Many fail badly if you try to do a transcode (which requires faster-than-real-time decoding).
- Adding support for them to any device or software is prohibitively expensive (you must buy an mpeg-2 decoder license for each device and copy of the software) given the small number of users that need it (only a small fraction of MCE PCs include a tuner card to date).
These are why (in general) DVR-MS is great for MCE, but why portable devices (ipod, p4s devices, Zune) have not opted to support it...yet.
All of this said, we obviously have strategic reasons to want to enable this in the long run, and our most engaged customers are demanding it. I always say nobody should buy a Zune based on future promises (but may secretly hope they do...;)), but know that you've been heard.
17 Comments:
Thanks for the dvr-ms format update. I always knew it was a wrapper around mpeg-2 but never the reason why not wmv instead.
Any history around how hard it would be for vendors to support hardware wmv encoding? I wonder how much it would cost to also support wmv. Hmm, how about a Microsoft-designed tuner card? Of course, would it even be possible to have a mixed format dvr-ms, with some containing mpeg-2 and others wmv? Probably not as you'd break every video conversion tool out there.
It really sounds like the dvr-ms format needs to change before it works well for portables. It would also save me from filling up a 500GB HDD constantly.
Lastly, I actually have two tuners in my MCE machine. I don't understand MCE without a tuner, what good is it if you can't record TV?
good thoughts, shawn.
A tuner card with built in wmv has long been a dream, and there may even be one by now. The secondary problem is that if there's only one, it's not a competitive market and the wmv tuner becomes a premium (expensive) product. PC OEMs like Dell who live in a highly competitive market really like to multisource tuner cards and drive price down, so they will always favor the cheaper cards that support mpeg-2 over expensive wmv ones.
without a tuner, mce is a big UI and premium experience around photos and music for the PC. In recent months OEMs have been making it standard on PCs, but without the added cost of a tuner card. Consumers just pick the default and end up with lots of MCE machines, but few tuners.
Nice article, Dave, but let me come at it from a different standpoint.
First, with regards to MCE boxes without a tuner, I think we'll have to agree to disagree about people buying them without a tuner. I understand your point about the UI being a fancy wrapper around photos and music, but I think if you look at it honestly, PVR is one of the most compelling features of MCE--to say that most people are buying it without a tuner is a bit disingenuous.
As to DVR-MS, I am one of those commenters you mention :), but the point is not that the DVR-MS format itself is unsuited for video--that is a given. My biggest complaint with the Zune is not that I can't play _DVR_MS_ on it, its that the device cannot _transcode_ it. Hell, I have so much TV recorded that I could easily fill up any Zune you guys put out :) So of course the format itself is prohibitive for personal devices.
The point, though, is that the Zune should have come out of the box with the ability to *transcode* DVR-MS into WMV, or MPEG, or something that *is* suitable for the portable device. My Archos does, why doesn't your Zune software? Let's face it--DVR-MS is your (that is, Microsoft's) format, and the Zune is your portable device.
What frustrates me as a developer *and* as a consumer is that your device doesn't work with your format. I spent about an hour finding and reading Stephen Toub's excellent articles on MSDN, fired up my spiffy C# Express Edition, and had a converter in about 2 hours. Hell, it took me about as long to download the WM SDK. Sure, its ugly, and its slow, but at least I can fire up the season finale of Lost for the 100th time while I'm on the shuttle to LaGuardia. I could have bought one of 5700 Video converters out there instead, but that's not the point.
Anyway, my point is, it is not about the format--it is about the functionality. I love my Zune, and I'm waiting patiently (believe it or not :), for an update which will more than likely make this whole point moot, but I still feel it was a bizarre design decision.
I appreciate your comments and I really enjoy the blog. Keep it up!
The biggest annoyance is that portable media centers can play back ms-dvr files. And, anyone with half a brain can see the resemblence of Zune and portable media centers. So, the next logical thought is why take out support for dvr files. Like people have mentioned here before, it's your format and its your device. That makes it look a bit pathetic that they don't work together when other devices do handle this, including the gigabeat which the zune is based on.
As far as I'm concerned "Connected Entertainment" is an overused marketing term that I never want to see or hear again. Right now, nothing is connected. I have no confidence that any of these products (zune, MCE, XBOX 360) will ever be connected. In fact, I'm growing used to the fact that the Zune is simply going to be the "other player" in this industry. It's what you get when you dont want an ipod. It's not much different. The ways that it is different don't matter because they're apparently not ready to take advange of the few nice things offered by the device. Bigger screen, no video content. Great UI and controls, but no extras (games, contacts, etc). They own MCE but forget about putting your TV files on the zune.
There are absolutely no benefits to microsoft making the device. It works with none of their other technologies besides wmv, and these modified plays for sure music files. But, if you dont want an ipod, you're stuck with it. If the Zune team has such difficulty getting one of Microsoft's own formats onto the device, the future just doesn't look good for this thing. Period.
It's amazingly ironic how MS keeps talking about wanting people to know they're serious about the zune, and at the same time they make the most questionable decisions. All we get for our $250 is skipping players, buggy pc software, and an endless supply of promises. Serious indeed. The era of connected entertainment is upon is. Enjoy....
Its sounds like the Zune product line should be expanded to offer a Zune optimized tuner. Especially true if what you said is true, that relatively few MCE PCs are sold with a tuner. I would like to see a network attached TV tuner like Pinnacle's PCTV to GO, SlingBox, LocationFreeTV with the specific encoding formats that work optimally with Zune. Ideally, it would be smart if you were able to utilize this Zune Tuner in some fashion (Stream to XBox 360, Stream to Zune, etc.) if the home does not have a Media Center PC. But if the home does have a MCEPC, they get all the usual PVR functionality.
I don't think many customers go back to purchase TV tuner once they purchase their PC. The geeks for the most part are the ones that browse network device section at BestBuy's. But if you have the tuner branded as a Zune or XBox accessory it could be located where the more casual consumer is likely to see it.
The competition: Sony with their LocationFreeTV already lets you stream content to their PSP and other hardware/software clients. It won't be long before they add client piece to PS3. Apple as you know announced iTV with few details. But I'll hazard a guess and this is a client/extender device that initially will stream iPod music and iTunes downloaded movie content. 2nd,3rd generation could easily add network tuner or pvr device. Hopefully this demostrates that you have some serious competition on your heals. MCE/XBox/Zune teams need to be firing on all cylinders.
Good luck and have fun! Need any help? :)
Dave, then how come the products on which the Zune and Zune Software are based (Portable Media Center and Windows Media Player) are capable of transcoding DVR-MS files just fine while the Zune isn't?
Hey Dave, a little off topic, I've been looking around for ways to make the zune understand disc # when it comes to compilations and such.
I know the Zune software sees the Disc Number tag as set number but there is no way once you transfer it to the zune to have it display as a part of a Disc #.
Is this just not possible? and if its not would have any recommendations? I'd hate to rename my album tags to Album Name (Disc #)
Thanx for the help :).
PS: wheee on the use of the Bold tag!
The cost argument seems bogus: MCE is not just encoding the content, it is decoding the content too (playback). Thus, the decoder is already paid for with the MCE device/software. (Yes, Maybe Microsoft's decoder sucks at transcoding, but you have already paid the "expensive" licensing fee in MCE.)
Zune/MCE/XBox must get to market fast to beat out Sony.
http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/18/sony-jumping-into-video-download-with-psp/
The probem is that MCE's decoder isn't a Microsoft decoder; it's whatever your OEM could get a lowball bid on from mpegs-r-us.
Dave, Media Center on Vista requires no third party MPEG decoder. Once it is released, will the Zune Software for Vista support transcoding DVR-MS files? If not, your entire argument holds no water. It seems much more likely that Microsoft is trying to keep the Zune a closed ecosystem like the iPod/iTunes system. Microsoft doesn't want you loading your DVR recorded video onto the Zune. They want you to buy TV shows from their soon to be opened Zune video store.
"The probem is that MCE's decoder isn't a Microsoft decoder; it's whatever your OEM could get a lowball bid on from mpegs-r-us."
Firstly, I know it's not Microsoft's decoder.
Secondly, nice: insulting every third party tv tuner card maker and thrid party MCE device manufacturer. Classy.
Thirdly, this is still nonsequitar: the cost of an mpeg license isn't predicated on the quality of the decoder. But they are, no matter what, paying the license for encoding and decoding. So STOP claiming that it's too expensive to pay mpegla for a license when they clearly are.
And I would think it would be best if David Caulton, Zune worker, isn't going around claiming most MCE's are "lowball" crap not capable of handling media codecs right. Don't you?
Yes, Vista is a different kettle of fish; 'nuff said about that for now...
it's not really an insult - it's just a question of design.
The third party tuner cards all work nicely in MCE.
The third party MCE decoders all work great - for what they were designed for. The problem is that transcoding is a "new" scenario that they weren't designed/tested/intended to handle. So many fail when you try to make it happen.
David, yes, you were claiming that they use cheapo parts/encoders.
Secondly, I do not see how encoding a live stream is any different than transcoding. Not to mention that it's bullshit to claim transcoding is new.
Thirdly, you ignored my point, my main point, about the cost argument because, as I have said repeatedly, the license fee is the same no matter the qaulity of the codec and they are paying it... So please, I anticipate another 4 or 5 posts where you whinge and rationalize MS's stance... please stop saying that paying licensing fees which are being paid by every device/software manufacturer in the industry are too expensive. It's nonsense, it's casting blame at those not responsible, it perpetuates Microsoft's suicidal war against industry standards (even though you must use them yourselves because noone cares to build hardware support for Microsoft's formats and they aren't particularly good for capturing live streams), and makes you look stupid. Thanks.
"Anonymous said...
David, yes, you were claiming that they use cheapo parts/encoders.
"... blah blah blah ...
Instead of being insulting & angry ... why dont you provide some constructive feedback with a solution that would meet your needs... and then you never know ... the software might get those features and you can feel good about it instead :)
As user/buyer from a kiss 1600 and this in combination with media center of vista I banged to the wall of dvr ms format. As kiss doesn't play it. Cisco/Linksys/Kiss do play a hide and seek game and now 3 weeks after buying it...at the end I got answer to my question...why kiss doesn't play dvr-ms. ....Rights...so money...paying to MS is where it's about. So you know Kiss doesn't want to pay.
As I am very happy with my kiss 1600 and my MC in Vista...I found on one of the communitties a little utility...called autodvrconvert which on the fly...converts or copy and convert the dvr ms into mpg which is supported by my kiss. Now I can playback dvr ms and mpg in my living room or playback the same in mpg in my bedroom. You spare yourself 20% in converting...to mpg and that's nice. I keep the dvr ms also as I know that kiss is coming with a program/update and with 2 extender dvd players.
dimov000
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